discuss@pergamon.mit.edu: [11126] in Perl-Users-Digest [11126] in Perl-Users-Digest home help back first fref pref prev next nref lref last post Perl-Users Digest, Issue: 4727 Volume: 8 daemon@ATHENA.MIT.EDU (Perl-Users Digest) Fri Jan 22 22:06:41 1999 Date: Fri, 22 Jan 99 19:01:24 -0800
From: Perl-Users Digest
To: Perl-Users@ruby.OCE.ORST.EDU (Perl-Users Digest)
Perl-Users Digest Fri, 22 Jan 1999 Volume: 8 Number: 4727
Today's topics:
Re: Perl Criticism topmind@technologist.com
Re: Perl Criticism topmind@technologist.com
Re: Perl Criticism topmind@technologist.com
Re: Perl Criticism topmind@technologist.com
Re: Perl Criticism topmind@technologist.com
Re: Perl Criticism topmind@technologist.com
Re: Perl Criticism topmind@technologist.com
Re: Perl Criticism topmind@technologist.com
Re: Perl Criticism topmind@technologist.com
Re: Perl Criticism topmind@technologist.com
Re: Perl Criticism topmind@technologist.com
Re: Perl editor ?
perldoc -k [topic] ?
Re: Where can i find the Perl software for Windows-95.
Special: Digest Administrivia (Last modified: 12 Dec 98 (Perl-Users-Digest Admin)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Sat, 23 Jan 1999 01:17:43 GMT
From: topmind@technologist.com
Subject: Re: Perl Criticism
Message-Id: <78b7vh$u68$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
In article <784oed$7os$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>,
droby@copyright.com wrote:
> In article <783l0u$ajk$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>,
> topmind@technologist.com wrote:
> >
> > Self policing does not work and managers are not trained
> > or have no incentive on weeding out the cryptologists in
> > a good many cases.
> >
>
> You're saying we should change a programming language because some managers
> don't feel an incentive to manage?
>
> > Bleep happens, and so does bad code.
> >
>
> Indeed. In all languages. And no matter how constricting you make the
> language, bad code will be written in it.
Like I said before, I don't buy the idea that it is an all or
nothing thing. Some languages encourage and allow for more
abuse than others.
I described at least 2 levels of abuse. Abuse at one level
is better than abuse at 2 (both) levels. A language can reduce
or prevent abuse at one of these levels.
Before one more person again comes in with "all langs are abusable
in the hands of idiots", please read my description
of the abuse levels.
-tmind-
http://www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/Lab/6888/langopts.htm
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Date: Sat, 23 Jan 1999 01:21:51 GMT
From: topmind@technologist.com
Subject: Re: Perl Criticism
Message-Id: <78b878$ua3$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
In article <36a5c1a2.6439582@news.highwayone.net>,
richardc@tw2.com (Richard Clamp) wrote:
> On Wed, 20 Jan 1999 04:11:16 GMT, topmind@technologist.com wrote:
>
> >I have no control of what other companies do. I only end up
> >maintaining the code of cryptologists.
>
> All that big prime stuff, very nice :)
>
> >The problem can be compared to the situation with OS's like
> >Windows 3.1 that assume and hope that applications cooperate and
> >do not step on each other. Guess what, applications DO step
> >on each other.
>
> 3.1 an OS? Okay, I won't go there, I'd lose you too easily.
>
> >Self policing does not work and managers are not trained
> >or have no incentive on weeding out the cryptologists in
> >a good many cases.
>
> Self policing works fine. With my management hat on I take offense
> that you suggest I don't know how to manage programmers and
> programming projects.
I am not talking about your little corner of the world.
I have witnessed hit-and-run programming at at least
5 very different companies (large, small, fast, slow,
gov, commercial, etc.)
I am talking about the forest, not your tree.
>
> Please don't hi-jack 'cryptologists' to mean bad programmers.
> Cryptology is a science which I have a great deal of respect for and
> is not related to the symptom you ascribe Perl to be a cause of.
I will stop as soon as I think of a better insultive word :-)
>
> The world needs more cryptologists, bad programmers who produce
> mangled code we can do without.
>
> Richard
>
> --
> Richard Clamp richardc@tw2.com
> Frisbeetarianism, n.:
> The belief that when you die, your soul goes up on the roof and gets
stuck
>
-tmind-
http://www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/Lab/6888/langopts.htm
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Date: Sat, 23 Jan 1999 01:30:12 GMT
From: topmind@technologist.com
Subject: Re: Perl Criticism
Message-Id: <78b8n4$uo3$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
In article ,
Piers Cawley wrote:
> topmind@technologist.com writes:
>
> > In article ,
> > Daniel Grisinger wrote:
> > > [I wasn't going to reply to this thread anymore, but couldn't
> > > help myself]
> > >
> > > topmind@technologist.com writes:
> > >
> > > > Come on now. I switch between dozens of languages.
> > >
> > > Dozens? Really? I think that you are lying, please list them.
> > > Include code samples (ability to write `hello, world' does not
> > > count as knowing a language).
> > >
> >
> > I have used Pascal, Java, VB, DEC-Basic, C, Xbase, Perl,
> > Fortran, Transact-SQL, DOS scripting, and a few modem languages.
>
> Still not even vaguely 'dozens' now is it?
Allright, you cought me. I should have said "many" or "a dozen".
I never stopped to count before I wrote that. It was
a "hit and run" reply.
I apologize.
>
> > > > Do you all use only one language and/or always keep them strait?
> > >
> > > I regularly program in C, Java, Python, Lisp, Perl, and C++. I
> > > have no difficulty keeping everything straight.
> >
> > 1. You should not extroplate your grand abilities to all others.
> > (Keeping them strait may be admirable, but there are other criteria
> ^^^^^^
> > to judge people on.)
>
> You use that word a lot. I do not think it means what you think it
> does. And judging by your other posts in this thread I got the
> impression that you were arguing that Perl should be made strait. Or
> are you conceding the point?
I am only pointing out it's flaws as a general-purpose language.
I would rather see a new language than a fixed Perl.
BTW, why is it so important to have "more than one way"
to write an IF statement? Variety || die?
> topmind@technologist.com writes:
>
> > 2. Most of those listed are UNIX/C-ish derived languages that
> > use similar syntax. You don't get around enough IMO.
>
> Hmm... Lisp uses a similar syntax to C? You know, I'd never really
> noticed that. Maybe because you're talking bollocks. Python's not
> particularly C like either now I come to think about it. (Though not
> as *wildly* dissimilar as Lisp either...)
I said "most", not "all". Still, your list covers a smaller
perspective range than mine it seems.
>
> --
> [...]
-tmind-
http://www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/Lab/6888/langopts.htm
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Date: Sat, 23 Jan 1999 01:42:38 GMT
From: topmind@technologist.com
Subject: Re: Perl Criticism
Message-Id: <78b9ed$v90$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
In article ,
Uri Guttman wrote:
> >>>>> "t" == topmind writes:
>
> t> In article , Uri Guttman
> t> wrote:
>
> >> bottommind, who reesed himself unconcious. never once did he back
> >> up his flaming and ranting with any actual working code,
>
> t> I asked for examples from yous of indespensable Perl cryptology and
> t> nobody showed any. Unless you produce some Uri, you are a
> t> hypocrite.
>
> you have it backwards, dear bottommind as you are invading our turf so
> it is up to you to provide code to back up your arguments.
My claim is that most of the twistability in Perl can be eliminated
without a great loss of productivity. If I provide an example,
someone would eventually find a different way to do it and say
"but you did not have to do it that way."
Are you saying that you cannot take the challenge I gave?
Regardless of my actions or alleged failings, you
have failed the test. Rather than fuss over the
source of the test, just take the darned test.
Seen your way, I am one person who failed. However,
yous are many people who failed.
> we are happy
> with perl and you are not so we don't have to defend it.
Where is it stated that only Perl lovers can come here?
(P.S. I am not a Perl hater, dispite the heat in here.)
> you have to
> defend you weak position of how obsfucated it can be. but as it has been
> said, you can write obsfucated code in anay language.
I have refuted this "equal abusability" claim several
times in detail. You have not addressed
the details of my refutation.
> [...]
> t> I only chewed out those who tried to use other non-computer hobbies
> t> and muck digging to attack me personally instead of the merit of
> t> ideas. I bet less than 3% of my messages have cursing.
>
> but you cursed first and foremost. i bet way more than 3% of you
> bleatings in this thread had cursing. i have found 90 posts in this
> thread by you and you have easily cursed in more than 3 of them.
>
I do not think believe that is the case. Perhaps you read repeats
of *quoted* stuff over and over and are confusing it with the
original.
>
http://www.dejanews.com/dnquery.xp?ST=PS&QRY=&defaultOp=OR&DBS=1&format=terse&sh
owsort=score&maxhits=100&LNG=ALL&subjects=&groups=*perl*&authors=topmind%
40technologist.com&fromdate=12%2F1%2F98&todate=Today
>
> and calling you reese is worse than anything else i could come up
> with. check out his flame wars in this group. you and him must have been
> siamese twins attached at the head separated at birth so you only have a
> half brain apiece.
Lump all things you hate together. Typical of humans.
>
> uri
>
> --
> Uri Guttman ----------------- SYStems ARCHitecture and Software Engineering
> Perl Hacker for Hire ---------------------- Perl, Internet, UNIX Consulting
> uri@sysarch.com ------------------------------------ http://www.sysarch.com
> The Best Search Engine on the Net ------------- http://www.northernlight.com
-tmind-
http://www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/Lab/6888/langopts.htm
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Date: Sat, 23 Jan 1999 01:46:45 GMT
From: topmind@technologist.com
Subject: Re: Perl Criticism
Message-Id: <78b9m3$vk3$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
In article ,
sholden@cs.usyd.edu.au wrote:
> [...]
> So far that is not even one dozen let alone 'dozens'...
>
I stand corrected, as described in another message.
> [...]
> I don't see much venture into the functional, logical, and concurrent
> worlds in your list either...
>
I am not sure what you mean here.
-tmind-
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Date: Sat, 23 Jan 1999 01:55:03 GMT
From: topmind@technologist.com
Subject: Re: Perl Criticism
Message-Id: <78ba5j$vpq$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
In article <787ejj$j61$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>,
droby@copyright.com wrote:
> In article <783lia$b21$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>,
> topmind@technologist.com wrote:
> >
> > I asked for examples from yous of indespensable Perl cryptology
> > and nobody showed any. Unless you produce some Uri, you are
> > a hypocrite.
> >
>
> Uri has produced plenty of code. I've seen lots of it posted here. It's
> generally quite intelligible to us, but to you would probably qualify as
> cryptology. I suggest you find some and show us how you would improve it.
> I.e., show us some real code with the faults you allege and show us how to do
> it right.
Is the code in this thread? Or another topic?
Perhaps when/if I get my new newsreader working right, I
can go hunting for such.
> [...]--
> Don Roby
>
-tmind-
http://www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/Lab/6888/langopts.htm
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Date: Sat, 23 Jan 1999 01:51:11 GMT
From: topmind@technologist.com
Subject: Re: Perl Criticism
Message-Id: <78b9uc$vo5$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
In article ,
sholden@cs.usyd.edu.au wrote:
>> ... I mix a few things up when I swap from one language to another
(especially from c++ to c - those // comments get me every time). However, I
can honestly say I've never had a bug in some code that was caused by using a
construct from a different language in code - compile errors yes, but not a
bug. <<
Ah, we are finally starting to get a little honesty now.
There were times when I put one equal sign instead of 2, and
the compiler/interpreter saw it as a "leaky assignment"
instead of a boolean. Still, compiler errors are annoying.
-tmind-
http://www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/Lab/6888/langopts.htm
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Date: Sat, 23 Jan 1999 02:04:52 GMT
From: topmind@technologist.com
Subject: Re: Perl Criticism
Message-Id: <78banv$am$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
In article ,
fl_aggie@thepentagon.com (I R A Aggie) wrote:
> In article <78a30e$sds$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, droby@copyright.com wrote:
>
> + Basically, NIST decided in the mid 1980's to require all government
machines
> + to have an OSI network stack. Such was pretty much unavailable, as OSI
> + existed only on paper. It was quite a bit of paper, but there was no real
> + implementation.
>
> Ah, that explain's topmind's experience with large, detailed projects, and
> his insistence that "implementation doesn't matter".
I did not say that it did *not* matter, I am just saying that
you are overemphasing it in an apperant attempt to discredit
or rid me.
All good ideas and bad ideas started out as ideas.
You guys are kind of controdicting each other. Some
claim I am falsely taking credit for existing (implemented)
ideas, and others are chewing me out for not implimenting
them.
Make up your friggen minds (P.S. "friggen" is not a cuss word)
>
> James
>
-tmind-
http://www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/Lab/6888/langopts.htm
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Date: Sat, 23 Jan 1999 01:59:59 GMT
From: topmind@technologist.com
Subject: Re: Perl Criticism
Message-Id: <78baer$5r$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
In article <36abea3f.3841399@news.skynet.be>,
bart.lateur@skynet.be (Bart Lateur) wrote:
> topmind@technologist.com wrote:
>
> >It is easier to introduce a new language than introduce
> >a new culture.
>
> But there are already hundreds of free alternatives available! But
> noooooo, you don't want to waste your time looking into those.
>
> You don't really think that your ideas are *new*, do you? Every single
> thing you came up with has been thought of, and hjave been
> *implemented*, before.
The newness of my listed ideas is *not* the issue. It is the evaluation
and collection of the alternatives that I am focusing on.
>
> Programming languages did not start with Basic, Pascal or C. Algol was a
> pretty sofisticated programming language. And it dates back to the early
> *sixties*.
"Sophisticated" and "good" are not necessarily the same.
(Example: NT is more sophistated than Unix, ie,
has more parts/code.)
>
> Bart.
>
-tmind-
http://www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/Lab/6888/langopts.htm
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Date: Sat, 23 Jan 1999 02:11:27 GMT
From: topmind@technologist.com
Subject: Re: Perl Criticism
Message-Id: <78bb49$p3$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
In article <78a4cl$h97$2@newshost.oracle.co.uk>,
dherriot@uk.oracle.com (Des Herriott) wrote:
> On Thu, 14 Jan 1999 07:06:30 GMT, topmind@technologist.com
wrote:
> > No, only those anal about language (english). The more
> > practical of us here are concentrating on wether
> > saving keystrokes or maintainability is
> > more important.
>
> Actually, the more practical of us here are just getting on with using &
> discussing this useful language.
>
> Look, if you don't like the language, go and use something else. You're
> not going to persuade anyone here that Perl is as deficient as you say,
> because, frankly, your arguments just aren't convincing.
>
Because I am looking at its plus/minuses from a different
perspective than most of you are. I don't expect to
"convert" you anyhow. I am only providing alternative
views for the less religious that may pass by.
> It's possible to write unmaintainable code in any language.
If I hear this flippen' MYTH stated one more time, I am going to
have Norton classify Perl as a virus.
ALL
LANGUAGES
ARE
NOT
EQUALLY
ABUSABLE
!!!!!!!
I am not going to explain it again.
> I've
> written plenty Perl in my time, and haven't had a complaint about
> maintainability from my colleagues yet, because in 'production' code, I
> make a considerable effort to avoid obfuscation.
>
Extrapolation Alert!
> --
> Des Herriott, Oracle Corporation UK Ltd.
> dherriot@uk.oracle.com
> - speaking for myself, not my employer.
>
-tmind-
http://www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/Lab/6888/langopts.htm
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Date: Sat, 23 Jan 1999 02:14:05 GMT
From: topmind@technologist.com
Subject: Re: Perl Criticism
Message-Id: <78bb97$pu$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
In article ,
dformosa@zeta.org.au (David Formosa (aka ? the Platypus)) wrote:
> In article <773fma$n1j$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, topmind@technologist.com wrote:
> >Reply to David Formosa's 1/6 message:
> >
> >>> Perl is based on a greate meany languges, its a polyglot of most of
> >computer scince. Indeed perl is the way that it is because Mr Wall
> >beleaved given the options it was the best was to go. <<
> >
> >Is the exact decision and ranking process documented somewhere? At least I am
> >documenting my choices and making it public.
>
> There are posts in this newsgroup, comments in the O'Rielly books and
> the online documentaion. Also the decision process is carried out
> (more or less) on the p5p mailing list.
>
> >>> Perl is basicly the embodyment of the unix philophy of "Don't stop people
> >from doing stupid things because you might stop someone from doing something
> >cleaver." <<
> >
> >What if it turns out that the ratio of stupidity to cleverness is
> >2:1? If that is the case, then Unix will drag down a company.
>
> Then you don't employ stupid people in the IT dept. In most cases
> I've found its the non-unix solotions dragging down a comperney esp
> where it is combined with stupidity. At worst such systems fool the
> stupid people into thinking that they can mannige the system.
>
> > (It may not be 2, but IMO stupidy gt cleverness.)
>
> Unfortunitly this is likely true, however if you are a clever person
> it is a constent irratation to be strait jacketted by these safetylocks.
>
> [...]
Is this a rerun or duplicate post?
I could almost swear I read this weeks ago.
-dejamind-
http://www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/Lab/6888/langopts.htm
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Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1999 20:22:35 -0500
From: Steve Palincsar
Subject: Re: Perl editor ?
Message-Id: <36A9245B.B9F12E98@his.com>
Would you consider emacs an IDE? Many would argue that
it is the best programmers' editor around, and it has
many features that qualify as an integrated development
environment. And yes, there is a windows versiion, and
I see no reason why the (abolutely unbelievably fantastic)
cperl-mode extension written by ILYAZ shouldn't work with
it as well as it does with the unix version.
BELYAKOV_LEN wrote:
>
> I'm playing with PerlBuilder (from soluctionsoft.com) and while it's
> nice and better than nothing it's got some quirks and behaves annoying
> at times. I'd buy it were it $40, but unfortunately it's $150. Does
> anyone know of another IDE-type editor that's good for using Perl?
>
> Thanks
> Len
>
> NB. My address in this message is a bogus one obviously--please post
> your responses to the newsgroup.
------------------------------
Date: 22 Jan 1999 21:41:36 -0500
From: Yeoh Yiu
Subject: perldoc -k [topic] ?
Message-Id:
If I was wondering about those messages I sometimes see when I run
my code with -w which are explained in a document called perldiag
(This is in the ActiveState distribution; my ISP's setup in
SunOS looks promising, but is currently hosed:
>perldoc perldiag
can't open /usr/local/lib/perl5.003/pod/perldiag.pod: Permission denied at /usr/local/bin/pod2man line 362
)
I would just look in perldiag.
Now, supposing I didn't know that warnings were documented in perldiag.
How would I know to look there ?
Is there anything that maps from a given topic to the apropos help
file ?
perldoc -k warnings ?
If I wanted info on getting the path of the current working directory,
how would I know to look in the module docs and find Cwd ?
What is the console alternative to the index of a Camel book ?
squid@panix.com
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1999 20:58:57 -0500
From: jamesht
To: Harish Mittal
Subject: Re: Where can i find the Perl software for Windows-95.
Message-Id: <36A92CE1.D5A8796C@idt.net>
www.activestate.com
------------------------------
Date: 12 Dec 98 21:33:47 GMT (Last modified)
From: Perl-Request@ruby.oce.orst.edu (Perl-Users-Digest Admin)
Subject: Special: Digest Administrivia (Last modified: 12 Dec 98)
Message-Id:
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Well, after 6 months, here's the answer to the quiz: what do we do about
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]Subject: comp.lang.perl.moderated available via e-mail
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