1 00:00:01,470 --> 00:00:09,090 Well, Trevor, it's great that you've agreed to give an interview about the Oxford Medical School and its doings, 2 00:00:09,090 --> 00:00:15,180 and first of all, I could ask you how you came to come to Oxford. 3 00:00:15,180 --> 00:00:32,820 Yes, I, uh, I was in the army, as you know, and, uh, at the end of my Army service, national service, uh, in the beginning of nine, 4 00:00:32,820 --> 00:00:43,050 January nineteen fifty seven, uh, I came to Oxford, having been to two years at St. Mandeville Hospital. 5 00:00:43,050 --> 00:00:54,060 It was a senior registrar appointment to the Oxford Pathology Services starting in St. Mandaville and finishing off in Oxford. 6 00:00:54,060 --> 00:00:58,380 And I came to Oxford sort of January fifty seven. 7 00:00:58,380 --> 00:01:05,220 So was there a lot of neuropathology with Ludovic Goodman says they could have been pretty me. 8 00:01:05,220 --> 00:01:09,120 Yes, but with a lot of spine. Oh yes. Yes, yes. 9 00:01:09,120 --> 00:01:21,540 I did a great deal of work on the on the preserved stuff and on the autopsies I did on and on the people who have been paraplegic for years, 10 00:01:21,540 --> 00:01:38,130 nearly all army, British army. And then I came to Oxford and I did quite a lot of haematology at Oxford to do two years with Peggy Pickles. 11 00:01:38,130 --> 00:01:44,490 And I was quite near to Linowitz calendar, whoever it was. 12 00:01:44,490 --> 00:01:59,990 A lot of haematology in Oxford. Yes. And of course it was the Rocksmith was quite a book and the book from History of Haematology. 13 00:01:59,990 --> 00:02:04,290 He was a historian even then. Was he more than I actually am in the present? 14 00:02:04,290 --> 00:02:08,610 I think as historian from student, yes. Yes. 15 00:02:08,610 --> 00:02:12,630 And so when you interstate, you knew you'd come to Oxford. Oh, yes. 16 00:02:12,630 --> 00:02:17,630 So what made you apply to the state? Because you wanted to work in Oxford? 17 00:02:17,630 --> 00:02:23,110 So it was very interesting to work with the spinal injuries unit on the pathology. 18 00:02:23,110 --> 00:02:29,220 You know, that was very interesting. But what made you want to come to accept them? 19 00:02:29,220 --> 00:02:33,240 Well, who wouldn't I say? 20 00:02:33,240 --> 00:02:38,730 I mean, the people there or what I knew linowitz a little bit. 21 00:02:38,730 --> 00:02:51,180 And I had heard of the the work of thrombin activity, Rosemary Big and McFarlan, and they were really quite famous. 22 00:02:51,180 --> 00:02:56,370 Yes. And I had started off in haematology in Manchester. 23 00:02:56,370 --> 00:03:02,670 But I don't I don't. Six months haematology with Geoff Wilkinson. 24 00:03:02,670 --> 00:03:07,150 Yes. And that resulted in me being a junior specialist in the Army. 25 00:03:07,150 --> 00:03:16,470 Right. So I was I was in the Eastern Command laboratory, which you probably just remembered. 26 00:03:16,470 --> 00:03:25,290 You were in Southern Command. I think it was also in the Listman laboratory, guys. 27 00:03:25,290 --> 00:03:32,630 Anyway, so we had a very good lab service with er I mean what they sent away I didn't know but um. 28 00:03:32,630 --> 00:03:37,800 Yeah. And when I came across we were still open but still taking cases. 29 00:03:37,800 --> 00:03:42,790 Yes. And the non-polluting was the consultant there to the army. 30 00:03:42,790 --> 00:03:51,920 Yes. Judy. For neurosurgery. And of course Ritchie used to go out there to see cases and on honours particularly. 31 00:03:51,920 --> 00:03:58,680 And so when you done your haematology in Oxford, you then rotated into neuropathology in Oxford? 32 00:03:58,680 --> 00:04:06,720 No, no. I wanted to do the neuropathology, but I was too valuable to be spared from. 33 00:04:06,720 --> 00:04:16,440 He would have done quite a bit. And I said the blood transfusion immunologic could deal with immunology. 34 00:04:16,440 --> 00:04:22,800 I worked a lot on the Nevius, which was published by Pickle's after I left. 35 00:04:22,800 --> 00:04:38,550 I think that was quite interesting stuff. The when I came to Oxford, uh uh, the Alisson had been appointed as professor of surgery sometime before, 36 00:04:38,550 --> 00:04:45,210 but Pickering had just been appointed and hardly arrived and his unit was being built. 37 00:04:45,210 --> 00:04:57,870 Yes. That sort of pavilion corrida was being built for him and causing a great deal of difficulty to the hospital because they were so small, 38 00:04:57,870 --> 00:05:08,810 the hospital and. There really wasn't room for a Regius that wanted to have beds and run to department. 39 00:05:08,810 --> 00:05:17,000 You were part of that. So you'd know that when you came to Oxford, how did you think it compared with Steg? 40 00:05:17,000 --> 00:05:23,390 So Mandaville was a man who was just a little hospital in the stick, so to speak. 41 00:05:23,390 --> 00:05:33,500 It had it had just a competent pathologist, bacteriology that just ticked over. 42 00:05:33,500 --> 00:05:40,220 There was nothing there that merited a medical school tuition. 43 00:05:40,220 --> 00:05:51,950 Yeah, I mean, Oxford is quite different, but struggling terribly from all sorts of poor decisions in the years before. 44 00:05:51,950 --> 00:05:56,450 And I read quite a bit about it a couple of years ago. 45 00:05:56,450 --> 00:06:03,800 And Oxford Radcliffe Infirmary has caused endless trouble in the Department of 46 00:06:03,800 --> 00:06:11,150 Health because of refusing to do things and doing things that they wanted to do. 47 00:06:11,150 --> 00:06:15,620 But it was mostly by the old gang of surgeons, 48 00:06:15,620 --> 00:06:28,250 physicians wanting to stay and stay in the Radcliffe Infirmary and not really wishing to consider a bigger hospital up the hill. 49 00:06:28,250 --> 00:06:40,460 Because, you see, we own and we own the site, which is now donative hospital, that we didn't own the church on one foot because they were reaching. 50 00:06:40,460 --> 00:06:43,220 And you see, it was a very important distinction there. 51 00:06:43,220 --> 00:06:56,360 The Board of governors on Radcliffe and the site of the practise, they didn't own the other one, 52 00:06:56,360 --> 00:07:04,670 which was a great pity because whilst we were building it, the organisation changed and we did. 53 00:07:04,670 --> 00:07:17,540 It was only one organisation then. And what specific decisions do you think were bad with actual votes on what they should do? 54 00:07:17,540 --> 00:07:24,140 Well, I've only really looked at it after 1948 when the NHS began. 55 00:07:24,140 --> 00:07:31,760 Before then, it was a very small hospital with some very good physicians and surgeons there. 56 00:07:31,760 --> 00:07:45,200 There was no consultant system, really. And then came the National Health Service for State, and everyone was made to consultants, 57 00:07:45,200 --> 00:07:52,790 including some that perhaps were more like general practitioners, the consultants. 58 00:07:52,790 --> 00:08:03,560 But coming as I had from Manchester, I was shocked at how backward the medical services were. 59 00:08:03,560 --> 00:08:14,120 In Oxford, for example, we didn't have a dermatologist right now back in Manchester in the 40s, 60 00:08:14,120 --> 00:08:25,220 we had a skin hospital and about six consultant dermatologists with outpatients knowing what we had was Dr Mallett, remember? 61 00:08:25,220 --> 00:08:31,940 Well, yes, but also maybe Alice can't do that because she was always called a dermatologist. 62 00:08:31,940 --> 00:08:40,460 And and Pat did the mythology that that man was officially the dermatologist never knew that 63 00:08:40,460 --> 00:08:46,040 because I always thought he was a general physician with a penchant for endocrinology, 64 00:08:46,040 --> 00:08:55,580 sewed himself. I mean, and maybe that's why I never saw I was working and he never told me, but there really wasn't. 65 00:08:55,580 --> 00:09:07,010 And I mean, that's just an example, because in cancer therapy, there was no cancer department of any sort was there in Manchester with radiotherapy. 66 00:09:07,010 --> 00:09:11,090 There was a whole hospital. Yes. The cancer hospital. 67 00:09:11,090 --> 00:09:19,820 Radim Institute. Yes. The whole Ross Patterson. About ten surgeons there and a huge laboratory. 68 00:09:19,820 --> 00:09:25,220 We only got that in Oxford in about five years ago. 69 00:09:25,220 --> 00:09:28,910 Yes, that's right. So we were 50 years behind it. 70 00:09:28,910 --> 00:09:35,300 Manchester, I don't know what Manchester right now, but that was the 1940s cancer hospital. 71 00:09:35,300 --> 00:09:46,610 Oh, about six or seven very good surgeons. And then X-rays, of course, radiotherapy and above all, laboratories to research cancer. 72 00:09:46,610 --> 00:09:50,180 And of course, we had nothing at all. What were you doing? 73 00:09:50,180 --> 00:09:56,150 General postmortems in Oxford? Yeah, I was doing a general post-mortem. 74 00:09:56,150 --> 00:09:59,650 So statement. Yes, but not in Oxford. 75 00:09:59,650 --> 00:10:12,100 I only did the neurology on it, so when you left the haematological pathology, then you started doing area pathology, that right? 76 00:10:12,100 --> 00:10:16,740 That's right, yes. Yes, there was a lot of pressure to make me a haematologist. 77 00:10:16,740 --> 00:10:25,270 Yeah. And Rob Smith was very keen on me becoming the consultant haematologist there. 78 00:10:25,270 --> 00:10:30,490 But of course, Macfarlane was very loyal to shop and shop. 79 00:10:30,490 --> 00:10:39,670 Right. And I was quite rightly made the consultant and I was left alone with me in neuropathology without which I wanted to do anyway. 80 00:10:39,670 --> 00:10:53,890 Yes, because haematology even then was obviously not exactly a dead end, but there was not much future for a whole range of activities in haematology. 81 00:10:53,890 --> 00:11:03,350 And it is because finishes at nine a.m. and there was a big sort of sorry, fine. 82 00:11:03,350 --> 00:11:10,840 And the leukaemia was coming in and the Hodgkin's disease and all that. 83 00:11:10,840 --> 00:11:19,660 But it it was it was ceasing to be a laboratory job for a consultant haematologist. 84 00:11:19,660 --> 00:11:27,820 Yes. And they all really had to get their memberships and become consultant physicians with a 85 00:11:27,820 --> 00:11:36,100 Bedzin they into which they admitted most of the cases of leukaemia and Hodgkin's disease. 86 00:11:36,100 --> 00:11:42,830 And that's why things so I could see really that laboratory haematology was coming to an end. 87 00:11:42,830 --> 00:11:46,210 But it's going to be more technical. Yes. 88 00:11:46,210 --> 00:11:52,600 Also, the machines that come in is because when I started haematology, you did most of it yourself down the microscope. 89 00:11:52,600 --> 00:11:58,990 But now the machines were doing all the major indices of haematology. 90 00:11:58,990 --> 00:12:04,360 So they really needed technicians to run the machines and not consultants. 91 00:12:04,360 --> 00:12:12,340 It was not a matter of puncture, I suppose. So I was really I was not looking to get out of haematology, 92 00:12:12,340 --> 00:12:24,010 but I could see it wasn't it wasn't going the distance that other bits of pathology where you went as junior to Oppenheimer, is that right? 93 00:12:24,010 --> 00:12:31,750 Well, actually, I was a senior because he was he was qualified after I died. 94 00:12:31,750 --> 00:12:36,730 So he'd done he'd done a degree in and the wall and then that. 95 00:12:36,730 --> 00:12:43,510 So he was a late starter. Right. So although I was in his department, I was really his senior. 96 00:12:43,510 --> 00:12:47,480 Right. And but he was such a magnificent brain. 97 00:12:47,480 --> 00:12:51,970 He was a wonderful son. He knew a lot of anatomy. 98 00:12:51,970 --> 00:12:59,650 And of course, he knew the neuroanatomy. I knew the pathology. So together we made a good pair. 99 00:12:59,650 --> 00:13:06,230 And I mean, at that time, we were doing whatever it was, weekly or fortnightly brain cutting sessions. 100 00:13:06,230 --> 00:13:16,030 They were always weekly. Yes, they had been started by Hugh Cairns and they were very much tailored to the neurosurgeons. 101 00:13:16,030 --> 00:13:23,860 But Richard also wanted to join them until he began to want his own weekly tests. 102 00:13:23,860 --> 00:13:27,550 But you see, Richard Russell then was at the Churchill. Yes. 103 00:13:27,550 --> 00:13:35,520 And before that and before I had the Churchill, he was at Stoke Mandeville, where Richard Russell, when I was a stoltmann, 104 00:13:35,520 --> 00:13:48,520 know that the new Department of Neuropathology consisted of a chair and a filing cabinet outside the office of the neurosurgeon's. 105 00:13:48,520 --> 00:13:53,980 That was the Department of Neurology. There was outpatients. 106 00:13:53,980 --> 00:14:03,910 Yes. But that, of course, was a general outpatient facilities devoted to neurology on that day or perhaps two days. 107 00:14:03,910 --> 00:14:11,050 So Ritchie was located really at the state mental hospital for his patients. 108 00:14:11,050 --> 00:14:16,720 That got plenty of beds there. Yes. So he did quite well. And then it was at the Churchill. 109 00:14:16,720 --> 00:14:25,210 Ritchie moved from Stoltmann to Churchill and on a Smith tells, which is folding. 110 00:14:25,210 --> 00:14:28,990 When you came late, you know, Spalding was there. 111 00:14:28,990 --> 00:14:38,470 He'd been a challenge, but he was there. He'd been during the war is not since Hughes and subsequently in Italy and all that. 112 00:14:38,470 --> 00:14:52,270 And John Spaulding was he was a great doctor, you see, because he'd done classics at Oxford and that new college from Eton. 113 00:14:52,270 --> 00:14:56,470 And then came the wall. They wanted medicine after the war. 114 00:14:56,470 --> 00:15:03,110 So he was a bit behind in the. John, he's a very good classicist, right? 115 00:15:03,110 --> 00:15:07,760 Yeah, well, it's quite helpful not to make it classics. 116 00:15:07,760 --> 00:15:15,020 Yes, yes. And yes, he was a charming man, too, and a very good friend, John Spalding. 117 00:15:15,020 --> 00:15:30,830 But he got mixed up with the anaesthetists. Right. Because, uh, Lord Nuffield had had given the directive the first iron lung for people with polio. 118 00:15:30,830 --> 00:15:37,610 Yes. And then subsequently, Nuffield gave an iron lung to every major hospital in the UK. 119 00:15:37,610 --> 00:15:42,080 We had one, for example, in Manchester, Nottingham. Right. 120 00:15:42,080 --> 00:15:49,130 And of course, these people who are totally paralysed with an artificial respiration. 121 00:15:49,130 --> 00:15:58,730 And John Spalding became very interested in that. And he and Cramton Smith sort of developed the, uh, the respirator. 122 00:15:58,730 --> 00:16:13,310 And the successor of the iron lung, which was the iron lung, was a you must have seen a huge coffin of steel, but it became a curious respirator. 123 00:16:13,310 --> 00:16:22,770 And it was designed by Richard Russell and John Spalding and Cameron Smith and Schuster and Schuster. 124 00:16:22,770 --> 00:16:26,900 Yes. Yes. Perhaps it was. But, you know. No, I don't. 125 00:16:26,900 --> 00:17:01,220 And and so John Spalding became almost exactly you couldn't possibly call him in at least a spot in respiration who became. 126 00:17:01,220 --> 00:17:05,060 That's right, and of course, this is Joe Johns. 127 00:17:05,060 --> 00:17:12,650 Crimes have been working together for years and they went sailing together for years afterwards after that. 128 00:17:12,650 --> 00:17:21,950 Yes, but I mean, John Sperling had done a lot of work on shrapnel, bullet injuries to the head with your coat. 129 00:17:21,950 --> 00:17:28,530 Mean he is I mean, his doctorate, as it were, was the stuff from Hampton. 130 00:17:28,530 --> 00:17:35,480 A lot of people, Hampton visible injuries. He did the visual fields and where the bullet was on the X-ray because it showed up, 131 00:17:35,480 --> 00:17:40,400 you know, and and Dorothy Dorothy Russell, was she still a name in the department? 132 00:17:40,400 --> 00:17:44,420 Oh, yes, very much. Her name and all her her records were there. 133 00:17:44,420 --> 00:17:52,700 But of course, she had long gone. And she she didn't really enjoy her time in Oxford. 134 00:17:52,700 --> 00:18:03,500 She was a London hospital product. Yes. And she thought Oxford was a bit of a backwater and had to be persuaded strongly by a few cans to come here. 135 00:18:03,500 --> 00:18:10,460 And as soon as the war was over, in spite of his insistence that she stay, she returned to London. 136 00:18:10,460 --> 00:18:16,370 And, of course, got the chairman in 2003 and during the war and the Cairns and Hughes, 137 00:18:16,370 --> 00:18:22,450 did they do a lot of proper neuropathology on the servicemen, the head injuries? 138 00:18:22,450 --> 00:18:26,500 Yes, yes. Yes. Good. Yes. And that was done by Dr Russell. Right. 139 00:18:26,500 --> 00:18:32,060 And my technician had done some of the work. 140 00:18:32,060 --> 00:18:41,060 Uh, the technician who's now died of Tugwell know his name, 141 00:18:41,060 --> 00:18:50,870 but he had he had even worked with Ortega because Ortega had preceded Dr. Russell in Oxford. 142 00:18:50,870 --> 00:19:07,970 Yeah, I never knew that. Well, you see, the civil war happened is. 143 00:19:07,970 --> 00:19:10,970 And so he came out of Spain. 144 00:19:10,970 --> 00:19:28,820 He went to work in Paris with Close Vincent's great neurologist and you can recruit him from Paris and he came to Oxford for about four or five years. 145 00:19:28,820 --> 00:19:37,010 He couldn't speak English, never learnt them. And he was very distinguished man, but he didn't fit in Oxford. 146 00:19:37,010 --> 00:19:49,140 And soon after the war ended, he went to South America, to Buenos Aires, where he started up for neuropathology school. 147 00:19:49,140 --> 00:19:55,070 So was there a hiatus between Dorothy Russell and you and Oppenheimer? 148 00:19:55,070 --> 00:19:59,600 Yes, there was. Yeah, well, it wasn't. 149 00:19:59,600 --> 00:20:12,470 Dorothy Russell went back to the London hospital and we were we then had Peter the who. 150 00:20:12,470 --> 00:20:16,910 I know the chap. Peter Klump. Yes. Yes. And Daniel. 151 00:20:16,910 --> 00:20:25,750 Peter Daniel. Yes. From Cambridge. Yes. And he was he was really a physiologist, but he took up neuropathology. 152 00:20:25,750 --> 00:20:36,410 He did it extremely well and was an expert on the pituitary gland and did a lot of work on pituitary with Harris. 153 00:20:36,410 --> 00:20:42,750 Yes, it was Harris was the professor of anatomy in Oxford. 154 00:20:42,750 --> 00:20:53,190 And and he and Peter Daniel did a lot of work on the particularly the the anatomy of the pituitary gland, 155 00:20:53,190 --> 00:20:58,460 the blood supply of it, and a lot of the work. 156 00:20:58,460 --> 00:21:07,350 Then Harris became the professor at Tenma Hill, the most important thing. 157 00:21:07,350 --> 00:21:16,580 Right. And because, of course, that the was Peter Daniel was persuaded to go from Oxford. 158 00:21:16,580 --> 00:21:22,610 Right. And then Harris was made professor at Oxford. 159 00:21:22,610 --> 00:21:30,470 And so we had the extraordinary business of Harris and Peter Daniel working together for years. 160 00:21:30,470 --> 00:21:35,580 And then, uh, Harris had gone to the Maudsley, Peter Diluent. 161 00:21:35,580 --> 00:21:38,810 Samantha Harris came back with Peter. 162 00:21:38,810 --> 00:21:49,880 Daniel had to stay there, but he used to come back, uh, by the back door and work in my department actually quite early. 163 00:21:49,880 --> 00:22:01,040 It was used to use the pathology facilities. Were you on the second floor and, uh, Pickaninnies department or were you in the Department of Pathology? 164 00:22:01,040 --> 00:22:11,690 Mainly? Well, we started off in the top floor and a three, but and that was fairly rather cramped circumstances. 165 00:22:11,690 --> 00:22:23,810 But everyone was cramped in those days. Yes. And it was it was theoretically and actually aware that the Nuffield three had been built by 166 00:22:23,810 --> 00:22:33,530 Hugh Cairns was a lightweight structure on top of a field for all the Nuffield professors. 167 00:22:33,530 --> 00:22:37,280 And one of the rooms was of a professor anaesthetics. 168 00:22:37,280 --> 00:22:46,070 One was obstetrics, gynaecology, Qasm Royal, and one of them was surgery first. 169 00:22:46,070 --> 00:22:53,170 And of course, these various professors had got their own departments built and so they were not there. 170 00:22:53,170 --> 00:23:03,740 There are some ways to come. They a bit. But that was the and then the library at the end of the year, because that's where the brain cutting session. 171 00:23:03,740 --> 00:23:08,210 That's where we showed the brains in a long time ago. 172 00:23:08,210 --> 00:23:11,990 And Sabrina Stretch, was she in the department now? 173 00:23:11,990 --> 00:23:16,910 Sabrina was an immigrant from Berlin. 174 00:23:16,910 --> 00:23:21,200 She was German Berlin doctor, very young. 175 00:23:21,200 --> 00:23:29,460 She came well, I think she came as a child and she did medicine in Oxford. 176 00:23:29,460 --> 00:23:39,230 Uh, I suppose she was somewhere or someone and but she remained in Oxford and she did neuropathology 177 00:23:39,230 --> 00:23:46,910 and then went with Peter Daniel to the Maudsley and but she always hankered after Oxford. 178 00:23:46,910 --> 00:23:52,190 I think she's back here still alive, that she must be late 90s now. 179 00:23:52,190 --> 00:23:57,290 Yeah, yeah, yeah. And how did you feel? 180 00:23:57,290 --> 00:24:04,730 I mean, you said a word about Gillian Spaulding. Any comments about Charles with witty and honest man? 181 00:24:04,730 --> 00:24:11,390 Well, let's just finish with John's. Baldhead is very competent neurologist. 182 00:24:11,390 --> 00:24:18,760 He was also a very charming, gentle, cultured man, and he, uh, 183 00:24:18,760 --> 00:24:25,250 he used to the system was that you were appointed as a consultant neurologist somewhere, 184 00:24:25,250 --> 00:24:30,440 but you worked in Oxford and he really was supposed to look after Northhampton in country. 185 00:24:30,440 --> 00:24:42,320 Yeah, I did it extremely well. And then came he took a bit early retirement because you remember how there's a freeze on medical salaries. 186 00:24:42,320 --> 00:24:55,790 And it transpired that if you if you retired at 60, you you were on half salary, full salary, 187 00:24:55,790 --> 00:25:04,510 but half pay and then you got increments, whereas the others who were working didn't get any money. 188 00:25:04,510 --> 00:25:08,620 So he retired and it was better off in retirement. 189 00:25:08,620 --> 00:25:17,260 And of course, it was getting a bit tough to go to Northampton and Kettering once a week, but he was still doing that right up to retire. 190 00:25:17,260 --> 00:25:28,820 So, yes, I mean, he wasn't hard up in a sense, but he told me that he'd retired then because he'd read the day he retired at 60. 191 00:25:28,820 --> 00:25:36,200 Your age at death was five years more. You know, the longer five years right now, which has proved to be correct. 192 00:25:36,200 --> 00:25:50,270 Yes. It's been going strong. Yes. Yes. Yeah. Um, then, of course, in return, he he also had a lot of research students. 193 00:25:50,270 --> 00:25:58,010 He was very good at postgraduate research, more physiology than anything else. 194 00:25:58,010 --> 00:26:02,090 And they were small trickle of really good research. 195 00:26:02,090 --> 00:26:08,840 Workers came to John Spaulding and then of course, came Brian Matthews says. 196 00:26:08,840 --> 00:29:14,210 And of course, you see, instead of coming to John Spaulding to do neurology research, they met Brian Matthew. 197 00:29:14,210 --> 00:29:24,250 What are you saying roughly, that if somebody had applied to do research under Ritchie, he would pass them to John Sperling? 198 00:29:24,250 --> 00:29:27,310 Well, they would come direct talks. All right, OK, 199 00:29:27,310 --> 00:29:39,610 maybe she was getting older than his and his work on polio was disappearing and he didn't have what she had all sorts of wonderful ideas. 200 00:29:39,610 --> 00:29:45,610 But she was a difficult time and extremely charming on the outside. 201 00:29:45,610 --> 00:29:50,530 But on the inside, he had a lot of people had difficulties with Richard. 202 00:29:50,530 --> 00:29:55,660 But it's very true, although they had all these ideas, he wasn't the experimentalist. 203 00:29:55,660 --> 00:30:03,940 I mean, he wasn't a research that sense now. And, of course, in the war, he done all that on head injuries, which is massive, 204 00:30:03,940 --> 00:30:13,240 where he had and he was really just enjoying himself in a frivolous way, but in a relaxed way. 205 00:30:13,240 --> 00:30:17,350 He was reacting. So other people did come to work for him. 206 00:30:17,350 --> 00:30:24,130 They found out that they would always turn to this mound of stuff on head injuries. 207 00:30:24,130 --> 00:30:30,820 Yes. That they had to somehow find somewhere some sense out of it. 208 00:30:30,820 --> 00:30:43,640 But whereas is John Spaulding was more physiologies and he had he had acquired develop skills of physiology and physiology could learn later. 209 00:30:43,640 --> 00:30:49,900 He was one of the research students and working to get back to work and went up to Scotland. 210 00:30:49,900 --> 00:30:53,140 And, uh, I may have the name wrong. 211 00:30:53,140 --> 00:30:59,350 You bought a piano? Yes. Oh, yes. Yes, I remember the piano. 212 00:30:59,350 --> 00:31:09,130 Uh, it actually was harpsichord right there. And he yes, he was a student of John Spalding's and a very good one. 213 00:31:09,130 --> 00:31:12,970 And he went to China. Turner Physiology in Edinburgh. 214 00:31:12,970 --> 00:31:17,560 Yes. And his name was what? It was something like what? 215 00:31:17,560 --> 00:31:22,930 It was a W. That's all I'm certain. Yeah. And not only did you come across him. 216 00:31:22,930 --> 00:31:29,260 No, I've heard the name. Yeah. I didn't know him. And he was working with John Spalding, I think. 217 00:31:29,260 --> 00:31:48,210 And then I met Charles Mitchell. Now, Charles was older than John, but not all that much older, but older in medicine. 218 00:31:48,210 --> 00:31:52,830 And he's been educated Clifton School in Bristol, 219 00:31:52,830 --> 00:32:05,420 and he done come to actually did Bresnitz college undergraduates and I think he was perhaps at Thomas's right hospital. 220 00:32:05,420 --> 00:32:13,470 Yes. A and then the war came in, opted for, uh, neurology. 221 00:32:13,470 --> 00:32:24,060 And he came to work with you can read it. And he was trained, as you can read it, for head to head injuries and World War Two. 222 00:32:24,060 --> 00:32:30,570 But he was a little older than a little younger. 223 00:32:30,570 --> 00:32:40,490 So he wasn't in the, uh, he he more or less went out in the Italian campaign after El Alamein, right? 224 00:32:40,490 --> 00:32:45,120 Yeah. And he was in Italy. 225 00:32:45,120 --> 00:32:55,920 I don't think he was in the Normandy invasion. And then he came back to Oxford and was made up to be consultant neurologist. 226 00:32:55,920 --> 00:33:03,880 And he was a good partner to John Spaulding and have had on the show. 227 00:33:03,880 --> 00:33:08,900 She was a personality. Well, on a Smith was the daughter of the elder sister. 228 00:33:08,900 --> 00:33:24,420 Yes. And she was privately educated, didn't go to school, but had a wonderful tutor who insisted that she knew mathematics and anything that needed, 229 00:33:24,420 --> 00:33:29,910 insisted that she got her school certificate and higher school certificate. 230 00:33:29,910 --> 00:33:35,680 And then also she's very good sport. She was taught to play cricket. 231 00:33:35,680 --> 00:33:42,690 She was good at almost everything. And and then, of course, it was wartime. 232 00:33:42,690 --> 00:33:47,610 And she came to work with Ritchie, I suppose. 233 00:33:47,610 --> 00:33:54,420 And then the tuberculosis meningitis was a scourge at that time. 234 00:33:54,420 --> 00:34:05,730 And she obviously had done some work in this and then was given the meningitis unit to run. 235 00:34:05,730 --> 00:34:13,170 And this was run at the pavilion up at Headington. 236 00:34:13,170 --> 00:34:17,940 And your wife, Judith would know absolutely all about that. But she worked there, certainly. 237 00:34:17,940 --> 00:34:26,340 Yes. Yes. And she was made by Hugh Cairns, the main reader in medicine, 238 00:34:26,340 --> 00:34:33,960 which was a sort of sort of miscellaneous little extra place that you could put people in. 239 00:34:33,960 --> 00:34:39,240 And I remember meeting this very reader. She was terribly nice on it. 240 00:34:39,240 --> 00:34:53,040 No, no upper crust style at all. She was very down to earth and and apart from hunting and horse racing where she was collecting. 241 00:34:53,040 --> 00:34:58,320 And I remember she was the main reader. And of course, you can sit long gone. 242 00:34:58,320 --> 00:35:04,260 And it was a bit of an annoyance to the Nuffield readers. 243 00:35:04,260 --> 00:35:10,260 Professor, did you see the reader was was a tuberculous meningitis expert. 244 00:35:10,260 --> 00:35:14,820 Right. And had been for ten, fifteen years, you see. 245 00:35:14,820 --> 00:35:22,740 And she was persuaded against her inclinations to become a consultant haematite neurobiologist. 246 00:35:22,740 --> 00:35:34,710 Yeah, I remember the advert to Oxford requires it with a special experience that is. 247 00:35:34,710 --> 00:35:37,520 And of course, I remember I said, how does it go on? 248 00:35:37,520 --> 00:35:48,300 I remember meeting I said, well, we just had a glass of sherry and then she was a shift from May read it to be consultant neurologist. 249 00:35:48,300 --> 00:35:54,000 And she was really she didn't have to say no. 250 00:35:54,000 --> 00:36:01,590 I when I dealt with her, I used to ring in at home with her because she used to come into the ward rounds. 251 00:36:01,590 --> 00:36:10,170 I go home because there wasn't any way for her to to be, you see, because the tobacco was meningitis more or less finished. 252 00:36:10,170 --> 00:36:26,880 And she had a wonderful idea of, uh, tackling, uh, uh, multiple sclerosis by the injection, I think, into the into the sequence of the tuberculin. 253 00:36:26,880 --> 00:36:38,520 Yes. She'd done this quite a bit. Which meningitis to try and break the block that used to develop so that the the drugs didn't 254 00:36:38,520 --> 00:36:48,140 go fully down the thing because there was a block and then she so she knew all about this. 255 00:36:48,140 --> 00:36:51,740 If you got, uh, research funds for this, 256 00:36:51,740 --> 00:37:03,290 and it was extraordinary because she would find a couple of cases of of multiple sclerosis and they'd be injected with tuberculin into the that, 257 00:37:03,290 --> 00:37:08,690 and they would have a temperature of about 107 within a few hours. 258 00:37:08,690 --> 00:37:19,270 And it was it was dubious whether they had any good, but really did them an awful lot of shaking up. 259 00:37:19,270 --> 00:37:27,950 And I mean, the rationality was not quite clear why it shouldn't have any effect on multiple sclerosis. 260 00:37:27,950 --> 00:37:37,850 But you should ask Judith about this is I think Henry meant that it came down to review that work today for the MRC and reported negatively on it. 261 00:37:37,850 --> 00:37:42,050 Yes, because there were no controls. No, none at all. 262 00:37:42,050 --> 00:37:52,140 And she had a house full house physician as well as to do this work that was paid for by research funds. 263 00:37:52,140 --> 00:37:52,940 Right. 264 00:37:52,940 --> 00:38:05,330 And on the whole, people rather sort of drew back from this that she was a bit alone in it because they really went I don't think any any case died. 265 00:38:05,330 --> 00:38:11,780 But there were some horrific, uh, high temperatures on it. 266 00:38:11,780 --> 00:38:17,180 So how is neuropathology developing over the 10 years, 20 years, 30 years? 267 00:38:17,180 --> 00:38:23,430 Well, you see, Peter, Daniel had made it a considerable advance under Peter Daniel. 268 00:38:23,430 --> 00:38:28,520 He was a very good researcher and he attracted a lot of people. 269 00:38:28,520 --> 00:38:36,020 He was also very good at putting in research money. And so he used to have one or two people who research money. 270 00:38:36,020 --> 00:38:45,140 And he did excellently until he went to mostly as professor, which of course was a considerable uplift for him. 271 00:38:45,140 --> 00:38:51,560 And off he went. And there was a complete, uh, uh, vacancy. 272 00:38:51,560 --> 00:38:55,550 And I remember Robin Willis and you remember. 273 00:38:55,550 --> 00:39:04,730 I do. I think Richard suggested that he came in and did a path and then he perhaps wisely said, no, it wasn't his scene. 274 00:39:04,730 --> 00:39:08,570 And I was trying to get into the middle path. 275 00:39:08,570 --> 00:39:23,240 But this was very much a university job, not a right, wasn't an NHS job because it was in the hands of Robert Smith as a sort of lecturer job. 276 00:39:23,240 --> 00:39:27,740 And it was not considered the right thing for me. 277 00:39:27,740 --> 00:39:31,070 In fact, I wasn't being told about it much. 278 00:39:31,070 --> 00:39:43,760 And but they found David Oppenheimer, who'd been doing their anatomy with Daniel and was really coming to the end of his his support there. 279 00:39:43,760 --> 00:39:48,560 And he was invited to come and do their part. 280 00:39:48,560 --> 00:39:55,770 And it was a tremendous success. So he was a very unusual chap. 281 00:39:55,770 --> 00:40:01,460 You knew a lot of the anatomy and he learnt a great deal about pathology. 282 00:40:01,460 --> 00:40:14,480 He was a great asset. Yes and yes, and I came in about the same time that I was working in haematology, 283 00:40:14,480 --> 00:40:22,190 just visiting the department, and did your techniques change a lot over the 10, 20, 30 years? 284 00:40:22,190 --> 00:40:25,370 Yes, quite a lot. In what ways? 285 00:40:25,370 --> 00:40:38,090 Well, the old techniques were silver on first on frozen, not frozen section was on the slide in sections of frozen sections. 286 00:40:38,090 --> 00:40:43,820 And we moved to paraffin bedding, which is very much more versatile. 287 00:40:43,820 --> 00:40:53,930 And I have been doing this on my spinal cords and so mandible and then came well, I started up electron microscopy. 288 00:40:53,930 --> 00:40:59,480 Right. And of course, the chance of doing that in the right place. 289 00:40:59,480 --> 00:41:05,420 But I managed to get plenty of space in the anatomy department, 290 00:41:05,420 --> 00:41:14,720 the anatomy that had the second electron microscope in the UK, first being in London, and they had about three there. 291 00:41:14,720 --> 00:41:21,560 And it's it's strange that if you if you want to use some very expensive piece of equipment, 292 00:41:21,560 --> 00:41:27,020 it's usually readily available because they bought it, but there's no one to use it. 293 00:41:27,020 --> 00:41:32,930 So I work quite a lot there. I mean, would you work two days a week or a half a day? 294 00:41:32,930 --> 00:41:40,130 Yes, uh, perhaps twice a week. Yes. And was that a great help in interpreting what was going on? 295 00:41:40,130 --> 00:41:44,330 Well, every every every thing you looked at was original. 296 00:41:44,330 --> 00:41:54,560 And I mean, if you look at it as a malignant glioma down there, down the microscope, electron microscope known as the world, it's seen it. 297 00:41:54,560 --> 00:42:00,980 No, but was it in advance? And knowing what was going on during life, if, you know, 298 00:42:00,980 --> 00:42:07,760 did it increase the understanding of what was happening during life, when it did in Alzheimer's disease? 299 00:42:07,760 --> 00:42:13,130 Absolutely revolutionised the understanding of Alzheimer's disease. 300 00:42:13,130 --> 00:42:24,260 And, uh, for example, what we found was the the herpes virus in herpes and psephologists, that is. 301 00:42:24,260 --> 00:42:31,100 And I mean that that was done by microscope. 302 00:42:31,100 --> 00:42:37,670 They used to be a lot of arguments about brain biopsy. For that, you would look at the biopsies, which you did. 303 00:42:37,670 --> 00:42:42,860 The Oxford people do them because there's all this adopts security in treatment. 304 00:42:42,860 --> 00:42:48,360 And, you know, should you do a biopsy before you started that of celebrity treatment of what? 305 00:42:48,360 --> 00:42:52,550 Glial, herpes, encephalitis? Sorry. I you know. 306 00:42:52,550 --> 00:42:56,030 Oh, we never used the electron microscope to diagnose it. 307 00:42:56,030 --> 00:43:02,090 Right. We could have done, but we didn't have the facilities, really. 308 00:43:02,090 --> 00:43:10,460 And then, of course, the person whom you remember well, we had everything in this department, including the electron microscope. 309 00:43:10,460 --> 00:43:18,740 But what he didn't have was anyone that could use it. So I was invited in to use it and I tried. 310 00:43:18,740 --> 00:43:28,010 But of course, it was in very bad state and and anything I shouldn't touch didn't do very well. 311 00:43:28,010 --> 00:43:34,160 And I eventually we got our own electron microscope in the Department of Pathology. 312 00:43:34,160 --> 00:43:39,950 Yes, it was it was a Dutch job. 313 00:43:39,950 --> 00:43:51,740 And I did a very large amount of work on that. About what you would that would be, I don't know, I suppose like 60s, you know. 314 00:43:51,740 --> 00:43:56,960 And were you publishing? The electron microscopy were not very much. 315 00:43:56,960 --> 00:44:06,650 It was, for one thing, the Internet until they actually developed journals to handle the others. 316 00:44:06,650 --> 00:44:10,910 The ordinary journals didn't like it too much because there were so many pictures. 317 00:44:10,910 --> 00:44:16,430 Yeah. How do you see how the pictures very expensive in those days. 318 00:44:16,430 --> 00:44:20,360 But we did we publish the herpes simplex and stuff like this. 319 00:44:20,360 --> 00:44:30,230 We publish that and I publish quite a bit of muscle stuff of, uh, muscular dystrophy. 320 00:44:30,230 --> 00:44:34,700 But of course I was doing about four or five jumps at the same time. 321 00:44:34,700 --> 00:44:36,470 What were they then? 322 00:44:36,470 --> 00:44:52,670 Well, I was the consultant pathologist and I was, uh, uh, I was teaching medical students and I had, uh, uh, I became to tutor it. 323 00:44:52,670 --> 00:44:57,830 And in pathology, the whole pathology here at the School of Medicine. 324 00:44:57,830 --> 00:45:03,620 Oh, right. Yes. In Oxford. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. 325 00:45:03,620 --> 00:45:12,930 And. So, I mean, I had these this work, it was all a stolen moment for me from a lot of other work, 326 00:45:12,930 --> 00:45:21,660 so I have no way that future medicine for the Oxford region, roughly 10 years it was the postgraduate tutor, right. 327 00:45:21,660 --> 00:45:25,150 Is. Oh, no, I wasn't. I did about six years. 328 00:45:25,150 --> 00:45:31,800 Yes. And what were you really doing then? Looking after the research students? 329 00:45:31,800 --> 00:45:36,210 It was almost entirely directed at the GPS. 330 00:45:36,210 --> 00:45:41,340 Right. And it was it was dreamed up by Pickering. 331 00:45:41,340 --> 00:45:46,290 Right. You remember Pickering pushed for medical education. 332 00:45:46,290 --> 00:45:51,300 Very hard for the country. Yes. And this was part of it, right. 333 00:45:51,300 --> 00:46:01,350 That every medical school in the region, the hospital region that had a medical school, 334 00:46:01,350 --> 00:46:14,080 would must have a medical tutor, uh, to to organise that to the graduate teaching, particularly of, uh, of the GP's. 335 00:46:14,080 --> 00:46:24,810 It was actually framed to organise the teaching of everyone she put into surgery just to get lost. 336 00:46:24,810 --> 00:46:31,230 And so it went mainly to the GPS and I did that for a year or two. 337 00:46:31,230 --> 00:46:37,830 Did you have much to do with Pickering? Yes, because he was quite interested in autopsy. 338 00:46:37,830 --> 00:46:42,340 Yes. And of course, I knew Mitchell. Yes, I do. 339 00:46:42,340 --> 00:46:52,050 Colin Schwartz. Yes, sure. Well, they were in our department all the time because we were feeding them bits of cases. 340 00:46:52,050 --> 00:46:56,250 They did that magnificent work on residences. 341 00:46:56,250 --> 00:47:07,560 Yes. Which is probably happening the new as is calling swaps from the from Canada or someone from. 342 00:47:07,560 --> 00:47:13,410 Yeah, he was from North America. From Manchester and Nottingham was. 343 00:47:13,410 --> 00:47:24,440 Yes, we went to Nottingham afterwards, but he was from Manchester to graduate from now and could that was missing a half an hour or so. 344 00:47:24,440 --> 00:47:32,270 Is that right. Yes. Yes. Well yes. The arteries throughout the body, they could do them. 345 00:47:32,270 --> 00:47:40,830 And that's three of your jobs. What were the other two? Well, they were not consecutive overexaggeration. 346 00:47:40,830 --> 00:47:51,770 Two guys, five together. And I was just thinking of being of being, uh, seeing a burst of green light. 347 00:47:51,770 --> 00:48:04,110 OK, yes. Yes. And also, once, when John Potter was on sabbatical, no sabbatical, 348 00:48:04,110 --> 00:48:12,420 use the acting warden of what I did, John Potter's work as well as my own or the director. 349 00:48:12,420 --> 00:48:19,890 Nicole said, yes, yes. No, I understand. So I did that if we didn't talk about the neurosurgeon's penny back. 350 00:48:19,890 --> 00:48:28,800 Yes. Oh, well, Joe Pennypacker is deserves a great biography, really, because he was a very great man. 351 00:48:28,800 --> 00:48:34,710 Yes. And he came from Nashville, Tennessee. 352 00:48:34,710 --> 00:48:45,720 And the story is that. But in that she came from a slightly well-off family against not he was he had shoes on their feet. 353 00:48:45,720 --> 00:48:56,580 Yes. And apparently there was a great man in Nashville, Tennessee, who was a doctor from Edinburgh, 354 00:48:56,580 --> 00:49:03,210 and there was a statue of him and it said from Emory University, Scotland, you see. 355 00:49:03,210 --> 00:49:11,500 And so Joe decided to go to Edinburgh to see you've got some sort of medical qualification before he went. 356 00:49:11,500 --> 00:49:27,060 And then he did medicine in Edinburgh, putting his funding, his own fees and everything and keep by guess what, golf pro. 357 00:49:27,060 --> 00:49:29,420 Just imagine in Scotland. 358 00:49:29,420 --> 00:49:44,480 A young man in his 20s earning a bit of a living at it, yes, it makes sense in a funny way, but I never knew that Major Joe was could do. 359 00:49:44,480 --> 00:49:51,820 Yeah, yeah. And then, of course, he's already decided to neurosurgery and he realised that that time there was 360 00:49:51,820 --> 00:49:56,270 practically nothing much going on in Edinburgh where he qualified as a doctor. 361 00:49:56,270 --> 00:50:00,760 And and so he he wanted to go to Queens Square. 362 00:50:00,760 --> 00:50:09,400 And so he he looked around there and as he was an American from Edinburgh Airport, 363 00:50:09,400 --> 00:50:17,380 there was no question of him getting the single job of house surgeon to the neurosurgeons today. 364 00:50:17,380 --> 00:50:26,230 But he did manage to get a neurology job and which was ideal because Joe as good a neurologist as any neurologist. 365 00:50:26,230 --> 00:50:38,890 Yes. And so he was the national and then huge fans found him and invited him to the London hospital in Whitechapel. 366 00:50:38,890 --> 00:50:46,210 And that's where he was until two cans came to Oxford during World War Two. 367 00:50:46,210 --> 00:50:51,400 Yes. And Joe, I see come came with him and stayed. 368 00:50:51,400 --> 00:51:01,900 And then who cans rather suddenly died. And Joe inherited his neurosurgery, but not the chair in surgery. 369 00:51:01,900 --> 00:51:09,640 So, yeah, yeah. You can see the chairs had the surgery and was immensely powerful because of that, 370 00:51:09,640 --> 00:51:19,000 whereas Joe had to struggle being really hear nothing much because he became a consultant and a neurosurgeon. 371 00:51:19,000 --> 00:51:31,030 Yes. But he was absolutely brilliant. Do you think you can came because of the army or was he appointed in Oxford and then the army came to him? 372 00:51:31,030 --> 00:51:45,820 Uh. Uh, Hugh Cairns was appointed Hugh Cairns, who decided to have a big institute of neurosurgery at the London hospital, 373 00:51:45,820 --> 00:51:56,870 that he was going to do both, and then suddenly Lord Nuffield persuaded him or found him to be a professor of surgery in Oxford. 374 00:51:56,870 --> 00:52:03,250 Yes. And also more or less promising that there would be more more money coming for other things. 375 00:52:03,250 --> 00:52:08,200 Yes. And he was the first of the Nuffield chairs in Oxford, I thought. 376 00:52:08,200 --> 00:52:15,430 And he said it was there. Is there you go. Yeah. And he more or less where he probably chose most of the others. 377 00:52:15,430 --> 00:52:19,400 Yes. Yes. Because he was a very forceful chap. 378 00:52:19,400 --> 00:52:28,540 Yeah. And of course, he knew exactly what was wanted. And so there was subsequent um the orthopaedic went to that spaniel's. 379 00:52:28,540 --> 00:52:49,310 Yes. To Twitter. And then Qasm I was the the first of six gynaecology and the Macintosh was the same as the first. 380 00:52:49,310 --> 00:52:58,880 The, uh, these they came rather quickly, I think, you know, within about two years, 381 00:52:58,880 --> 00:53:04,730 they were all into it and less liquids because cans would have known the London scene. 382 00:53:04,730 --> 00:53:09,460 I mean, I was married, which is Lyonel, which was, um, Lionel. 383 00:53:09,460 --> 00:53:14,220 Yes. That he was just a chap I think had been. 384 00:53:14,220 --> 00:53:19,160 Yes. But I think he was down. No, I'm not sure. 385 00:53:19,160 --> 00:53:24,950 He was the first Nuffield professor of medicine. 386 00:53:24,950 --> 00:53:33,290 Medicine. Yes. Whereas you can see the first surgeon and Macintosh anaesthetics. 387 00:53:33,290 --> 00:53:47,300 And for about five or six years, the thing was in turmoil because they had all these chaps displacing old old old chaps that had been there for years. 388 00:53:47,300 --> 00:53:52,820 And of course, they they would began to be funded with departments to see. 389 00:53:52,820 --> 00:53:59,750 But then came the World War Two. So that was put in abeyance. 390 00:53:59,750 --> 00:54:07,090 Well, they more or less went into the war. In truth, it was quite busy in World War Two. 391 00:54:07,090 --> 00:54:11,270 Yes. The kittenish and you know that. 392 00:54:11,270 --> 00:54:16,070 And but then as well as Pennebaker's puts a I was in there. 393 00:54:16,070 --> 00:54:24,560 Yes. We'll jump. Uh, well, there's one before that, Waterloo and the the second neurosurgeon. 394 00:54:24,560 --> 00:54:31,910 And he was, for example, to consult to the army when you were to, uh, which I'm sure you met. 395 00:54:31,910 --> 00:54:37,310 Yes, I did. And he had come from Hugh Cairns. 396 00:54:37,310 --> 00:54:45,410 And, uh, there was always a feeling that he wasn't a trainee of jumps to pay back. 397 00:54:45,410 --> 00:54:56,800 He was a trainee Cairns seat. And, uh, this was slightly made because, Puru, people never seemed to be there at the right time to him. 398 00:54:56,800 --> 00:55:02,720 He was always coming on the wall to find the job, had operated the lights on some dire emergency. 399 00:55:02,720 --> 00:55:06,860 It should have been his all that. And yeah. 400 00:55:06,860 --> 00:55:17,900 And of course, early on, while Polunin had been selected to be the the neurosurgeon at Cambridge, and wisely, 401 00:55:17,900 --> 00:55:27,710 I suppose he decided that he wasn't going to go there until they built the department for him because the Addenbrooke's had no space at all. 402 00:55:27,710 --> 00:55:32,120 And when I was there, there was always planning of everything. 403 00:55:32,120 --> 00:55:39,110 But this is a place for Woelfel. He was a very good administrator in Wolper. 404 00:55:39,110 --> 00:55:45,440 He was a poor operator, but that didn't really matter. 405 00:55:45,440 --> 00:55:53,960 And eventually he moved there with great fanfare of trumpets and then, uh, he needed junior staff. 406 00:55:53,960 --> 00:55:58,910 And, uh, Gleave John Bleed was the favoured chap. 407 00:55:58,910 --> 00:56:06,730 Yes. Because John Jr. Pennypacker used to used to work in a sort of dictatorial way. 408 00:56:06,730 --> 00:56:14,870 Benign dictator. Yes. You know, you will go to Cambridge and you go to Birmingham, all that, you know, no questions asked. 409 00:56:14,870 --> 00:56:18,890 You just do what you're told. And it worked out very well. 410 00:56:18,890 --> 00:56:24,560 And John went to Cambridge. Ted Hitchcock went to Birmingham. 411 00:56:24,560 --> 00:56:30,070 Yes. And Sid Watkins went to London. 412 00:56:30,070 --> 00:56:38,000 Well, I went to Syracuse, New York, for the came back to do the London job and said, Watkins, did you meet Sid Watkins? 413 00:56:38,000 --> 00:56:42,530 I just vaguely knew him. But I know he was a young chap. 414 00:56:42,530 --> 00:57:05,770 He died two years ago. Sid Watkins, yes, yes, John Cleve, it's just when I was there, 415 00:57:05,770 --> 00:57:14,380 but there must be a bit of a head injury in motor racing and Joan was very influential in helmets for major bike ride. 416 00:57:14,380 --> 00:57:23,090 Well, Wolf, like John Potter inherited the, uh, the crash helmet, so to speak. 417 00:57:23,090 --> 00:57:30,140 And in fact, the office that took the butt put it was you can see that the best of that. 418 00:57:30,140 --> 00:57:35,880 And then Walter Lewin carried on. And I've written an article on that, which. 419 00:57:35,880 --> 00:57:41,480 Yes, I have. Yes. Yeah, indeed. Yeah, yes. 420 00:57:41,480 --> 00:57:54,380 Well, he was such a he was a neat little man and but he was a insurgents' needs a lot of confidence that yes, indeed lacked confidence. 421 00:57:54,380 --> 00:58:00,500 Right. And, uh, and whenever they were operating, 422 00:58:00,500 --> 00:58:09,590 we would get a specimen from John Pennypacker from the middle of the tumour and we would diagnose it and whatever it was. 423 00:58:09,590 --> 00:58:18,860 And then he close up and all that. Well, Faloon like to have specimens on his way in and the first would be cerebral cortex. 424 00:58:18,860 --> 00:58:28,430 Oh, I see. Yeah. Yeah. Well, we used to say that he'd be sending us bits of skin first, if that's all the time we got into the centre, 425 00:58:28,430 --> 00:58:41,180 we got a bit tired and that's he was, he was he wished to be apart from Joe Pennypacker, not his standard. 426 00:58:41,180 --> 00:58:48,890 And you see mud and the water a rather funny because that Pennebaker just quietly 427 00:58:48,890 --> 00:58:56,760 to present a case and Warfield scratched his head and Joe sort of revealed the. 428 00:58:56,760 --> 00:59:04,880 Yeah. And the diagnosis as he thought and some said, were you in university administration committees? 429 00:59:04,880 --> 00:59:17,180 And things were that came later, because when I came to Oxford, there was there wasn't a medical, uh, 430 00:59:17,180 --> 00:59:25,250 committee in the university and there was a committee to which the regents attended, possibly another. 431 00:59:25,250 --> 00:59:30,110 But that was our only way in to the university. 432 00:59:30,110 --> 00:59:37,550 Right. If you wanted the university to do something, you had to get the Regis to stand up in the committee and say something. 433 00:59:37,550 --> 00:59:43,160 And of course, he had to fight the Roman historians and the philosophers, the mathematicians, you see. 434 00:59:43,160 --> 00:59:48,500 So it was pretty hopeless. Yeah. And then came the Clinical Medicine Board. 435 00:59:48,500 --> 00:59:53,180 Yes. Which you probably remember beginning to go. I don't know when it began. 436 00:59:53,180 --> 01:00:00,650 Yes. Well, John Potter was he was very, very early in that right. 437 01:00:00,650 --> 01:00:13,970 And I mean, it was overdue because what held it up was that we had the Nuffield Committee for Medical Research and that consisted of all the, 438 01:00:13,970 --> 01:00:23,150 uh, all the Nuffield professors. They used to meet about once a month and argue with each other about how much 439 01:00:23,150 --> 01:00:27,440 money they were going to get to their departments from the Nuffield bequest. 440 01:00:27,440 --> 01:00:34,190 You see, and this was OK to start with because there wasn't much work done. 441 01:00:34,190 --> 01:00:43,790 Research was done outside. But then as the years came by, there were more chairs developed and there was a chair of neurology, 442 01:00:43,790 --> 01:00:53,300 there was the chair of psychiatry, there was a chair of clinical pharmacology and quite a lot more. 443 01:00:53,300 --> 01:00:58,910 And the Nuffield committee was supposed to run this, which, of course, they were not fitted to do. 444 01:00:58,910 --> 01:01:08,810 And it became quite, uh, one of the annoying things about running university medicine that, uh, that the National Committee, for example, 445 01:01:08,810 --> 01:01:16,910 if you wanted to do a bit of experimental work in an animal, the only way to do it was to go to the National Committee and they would come. 446 01:01:16,910 --> 01:01:25,160 And how whether you were allowed to have these rats doing this, that and the other and on the whole, you know, and that sort of thing. 447 01:01:25,160 --> 01:01:31,160 So they developed. They they then formed. They disbanded the Nuffield Committee, 448 01:01:31,160 --> 01:01:36,170 which was becoming a bit of a failure because actually the people who didn't 449 01:01:36,170 --> 01:01:41,900 have access to that field committee used to get more money in from outside. 450 01:01:41,900 --> 01:01:47,570 But the Nuffield Committee used to get from the Daphne Foundation people like Richard Russell. 451 01:01:47,570 --> 01:01:55,440 So it's got enormous money from it. And they went in the committee. 452 01:01:55,440 --> 01:02:00,060 And so we got the Clinical Medicine Board. And I think John Potter might have been the. 453 01:02:00,060 --> 01:02:05,490 One of the early chairman of it, right, but that became quite important. 454 01:02:05,490 --> 01:02:14,400 And then after then, uh, Charles withI was the chairman, CNN and a very good one to tell us, 455 01:02:14,400 --> 01:02:22,240 which he was really he didn't have any particular, uh, speciality that he wanted to do. 456 01:02:22,240 --> 01:02:26,760 You did with migraine research. Bit of epilepsy. Bit of epilepsy. 457 01:02:26,760 --> 01:02:36,180 Yes. And he was rather relaxed about anything, but he was a very good chairman because he didn't have his own particular, 458 01:02:36,180 --> 01:02:40,590 uh, thing to wish to get money for influence. 459 01:02:40,590 --> 01:02:50,130 Yes. And he was the he he was the the chairman of the board of the Clinical Medicine Board. 460 01:02:50,130 --> 01:03:01,570 And I thought it worked extremely well. They were ex officio, uh, the regents professor, the Nuffield professor and probably the surgeon. 461 01:03:01,570 --> 01:03:07,800 And then the others were elected by a democratic election. 462 01:03:07,800 --> 01:03:25,320 And I was, uh, uh, I was elected to this, which is rather unusual, really, because I had become chairman of the lab services. 463 01:03:25,320 --> 01:03:31,660 But remember, there was a system of three medicine, surgery and lab and radiology. 464 01:03:31,660 --> 01:03:40,410 And then I was the chairman of the lab services. And this coincided with the commissioning of the John Radcliffe Hospital. 465 01:03:40,410 --> 01:03:50,370 Right. And, uh, I had, uh, uh, I had been on the commissioning team for pathology and all that. 466 01:03:50,370 --> 01:03:56,490 It was a surgeon and a physician. And we struggled to get this thing commissioned and all that. 467 01:03:56,490 --> 01:04:08,160 And certainly the university woke up to the fact that they had contributed about a quarter of the money to build the general hospital. 468 01:04:08,160 --> 01:04:11,760 It had come from the university grants committee and all that money, 469 01:04:11,760 --> 01:04:19,950 and they had neglected to do anything about finding out what it was that we built or how it's going to say. 470 01:04:19,950 --> 01:04:30,690 Part of their desperation was to grab me, appoint me to the board, ad hominem on by by Pulsifer, 471 01:04:30,690 --> 01:04:38,940 not by election in order that they would have somebody that knew what was happening in this new hospital. 472 01:04:38,940 --> 01:04:44,640 And so I became, uh, uh, I worked pretty hard at that. 473 01:04:44,640 --> 01:04:50,160 And I also thought you were probably on it two or three times a year. 474 01:04:50,160 --> 01:04:54,540 And I once said, yeah, I'll tell you about that. 475 01:04:54,540 --> 01:04:59,280 Well, it was rather small in number twenty five. 476 01:04:59,280 --> 01:05:06,180 And it was considered, quite rightly, that if have it any bigger than that, it becomes just a talking shop and nothing gets done. 477 01:05:06,180 --> 01:05:09,450 So it was, uh, everyone in the room. 478 01:05:09,450 --> 01:05:16,680 That's what had to do some job because you had to have someone on the regional on uh, 479 01:05:16,680 --> 01:05:23,300 on the regional level and they had to have someone on the on the directive board. 480 01:05:23,300 --> 01:05:28,020 I had to have someone on the on the general committee of the university. 481 01:05:28,020 --> 01:05:34,800 And, uh, you really picked these people and sort of work that into you, trying to get them, 482 01:05:34,800 --> 01:05:43,770 uh, elected by, uh, by the by the bits of paper circulating in voting for people. 483 01:05:43,770 --> 01:05:48,650 But if they failed, then you absolutely had to have someone you used to co-opted. 484 01:05:48,650 --> 01:05:53,850 And I was I think I was elected once, co-opted again. 485 01:05:53,850 --> 01:05:58,740 And I did, uh, the applications job, 486 01:05:58,740 --> 01:06:11,070 which was quite a tough job because you scrutinise every application for a post graduate degree for MASC to fill empty, 487 01:06:11,070 --> 01:06:17,580 but not a DSC that was, I thought, too important for someone like me. 488 01:06:17,580 --> 01:06:31,380 And I learnt over the years that the, uh, regulations about this I got absolutely immersed to my being so I could say instantly, you can do that. 489 01:06:31,380 --> 01:06:35,460 And, uh, this chap said, OK, that chapstick and of course, 490 01:06:35,460 --> 01:06:47,030 I had to accept take high degrees except their supervisors or find their supervisors and then find that examiners. 491 01:06:47,030 --> 01:06:56,580 And then I had to present all the skills, say, and it was all is all fairly tough and in, uh, in term time. 492 01:06:56,580 --> 01:07:00,040 But once the HVAC came, chairmen's action you. 493 01:07:00,040 --> 01:07:05,800 Do anything you like, a transaction and then then the first meeting of the board in the next term, 494 01:07:05,800 --> 01:07:14,290 you presented the list of 20 things you've done, you see, and as they were done, there was nothing that could be done about it. 495 01:07:14,290 --> 01:07:19,480 So they waved through where some of the things I want to do in turn time, 496 01:07:19,480 --> 01:07:23,740 someone woke up from their sleep and started to say, why do I have to do this? 497 01:07:23,740 --> 01:07:29,800 Why are we fighting this chap to be examined? I don't you know, he's a dreadful chap anyway. 498 01:07:29,800 --> 01:07:35,860 So so I did that. And actually, this is where I met Richard. 499 01:07:35,860 --> 01:07:37,660 All right. 500 01:07:37,660 --> 01:07:51,250 And, um, I suppose that having been chairman for so long, I became intricately involved in practically every department because of that post students, 501 01:07:51,250 --> 01:08:00,820 because the examiner said pointing out that and Richard Doll really observed this and then he wanted the best of a green colour, 502 01:08:00,820 --> 01:08:11,470 preferably without paying in the U.S. And that's how he got me into green college, which I hadn't really thought it was anything for me at all. 503 01:08:11,470 --> 01:08:16,090 How did you find working with him, Richard, on Green College? 504 01:08:16,090 --> 01:08:25,560 Oh, it was he was a marvellous champion. Yes. Yeah, yeah. And, uh, he had a tremendous brain is you figure in finance. 505 01:08:25,560 --> 01:08:30,070 And he he knew very well almost everything he had to do. 506 01:08:30,070 --> 01:08:36,460 I mean, if you asked him advice was wonderfully good advice. 507 01:08:36,460 --> 01:08:44,920 For example, I remember there was, uh, we were short of someone to present, uh, students for their higher degrees in, 508 01:08:44,920 --> 01:08:53,500 uh, uh, at the examination schools to get their degrees C, you end up at a lectern and read the thing. 509 01:08:53,500 --> 01:09:00,370 And Richard just did this without the slightest bit of preparation, nothing doing it. 510 01:09:00,370 --> 01:09:04,840 Then in neurosurgery, Briggs and Peter Teddy would be being appointed. 511 01:09:04,840 --> 01:09:14,420 Yes, yes. Or neurosurgery was, uh, was going from it was had its highs and lows because the first thing that, 512 01:09:14,420 --> 01:09:18,400 uh, the great thing was that Joe Pennebaker retired. 513 01:09:18,400 --> 01:09:25,120 Yeah. And, uh, that was, uh, he retired a little early. 514 01:09:25,120 --> 01:09:29,230 He was getting rather tired. It worked awfully hard. 515 01:09:29,230 --> 01:09:38,060 Yes. I mean, he'd done most of the surgery for Devon and Cornwall in Southampton, just west of Oxford and Cambridge. 516 01:09:38,060 --> 01:09:43,360 Yes, yes. Yes, indeed. And he managed to get people to point out. 517 01:09:43,360 --> 01:09:48,000 So he was getting a bit tired. So he went and he wouldn't work when he couldn't do it, if you know what I mean. 518 01:09:48,000 --> 01:09:55,780 Yeah, he would win. And then, of course, John Potter was the the his his first assistant. 519 01:09:55,780 --> 01:10:04,660 And then John Potter mentioned that, uh oh, by the way, I'm going to be the regional, um, tutor. 520 01:10:04,660 --> 01:10:13,060 Yes. And so I won't be doing neurosurgery. So we're going to lose Joe Pintubi hand. 521 01:10:13,060 --> 01:10:18,550 And that was a shattering. Yeah, yeah. Because who's going to win? 522 01:10:18,550 --> 01:10:26,130 So it's not like some subjects that that you can coast along for a couple weeks without anybody. 523 01:10:26,130 --> 01:10:33,070 It's a very, very serious. Yeah, yeah. And what they did is to persuade the guys to come back from Australia. 524 01:10:33,070 --> 01:10:37,750 Yes. And the guy came. I don't know whether you knew that. 525 01:10:37,750 --> 01:10:42,340 Well, yes. Yes. Well, I knew very well he his family and all those children. 526 01:10:42,340 --> 01:10:47,110 And they came he had been a previous student. 527 01:10:47,110 --> 01:10:51,070 Potter jumped off the train and he was very good, 528 01:10:51,070 --> 01:11:06,520 but he was very tough and negotiating with the guy and and he hadn't been there long when he realised that, uh, that Alesund was going to retire. 529 01:11:06,520 --> 01:13:20,890 But I that's professor surgery. And he thought the guy that they would be no better to succeed Harrison than the guy that's. 530 01:13:20,890 --> 01:13:32,680 And then the guy went back to Australia and then there was a bit of a period in which there 531 01:13:32,680 --> 01:13:38,380 was no one really running the place and they were looking for a successor to the guy, 532 01:13:38,380 --> 01:13:47,600 but neglecting to the fact that Chris Adams was there as a pretty junior surgeon, but extremely good one. 533 01:13:47,600 --> 01:13:54,880 And after a while, this sort of settled down and Chris Adams was decided to see who was the lead consultant. 534 01:13:54,880 --> 01:13:59,230 Yes. And they should get one or two more out of the system. 535 01:13:59,230 --> 01:14:08,470 Yes. And then came the others that you mentioned. Yes. Because Chris Evans had a remarkable career and he was a very, very good operator. 536 01:14:08,470 --> 01:14:13,540 Yes. I saw a lot of his work is something I remember. 537 01:14:13,540 --> 01:14:15,460 Do you remember David Tibs? Yes. 538 01:14:15,460 --> 01:14:28,460 Who still alive is David Tibbs was a vascular surgeon and he wasn't his speciality is was doing the blockages of the common carotid artery. 539 01:14:28,460 --> 01:15:23,330 You had the thrombus there and you sent for David Tibbs and he operated and either removed from the socket excise on that. 540 01:15:23,330 --> 01:15:29,600 Did you get involved with the picture yourself a bit, Chris Adams went into that room. 541 01:15:29,600 --> 01:15:40,340 Yes. Chris back? Yeah. Yes, we used to do the pathology, but Chris was very good at taking up a subject. 542 01:15:40,340 --> 01:15:44,960 And then if it didn't work, Chris would say stop. 543 01:15:44,960 --> 01:15:56,940 Yes. And he just didn't go ploughing on it. Yeah. And he told me once or twice that the church is a very difficult place to get at. 544 01:15:56,940 --> 01:16:02,660 Yeah. You know, whichever way you choose, it's difficult. 545 01:16:02,660 --> 01:16:09,710 And he he he rather wished to diminish his operations on the land, but he did quite a lot. 546 01:16:09,710 --> 01:16:14,090 He did indeed. He had a wonderful series with Chris. Yeah. 547 01:16:14,090 --> 01:16:24,410 You, um, the other thing, too, that he was very keen on when he came was, was aneurisms. 548 01:16:24,410 --> 01:16:32,990 Yes. And there was this was a terrible trouble of neurosurgery in neurology. 549 01:16:32,990 --> 01:16:38,900 But someone would come in with a ruptured engine and then they would refer to the surgeons. 550 01:16:38,900 --> 01:16:49,550 And after a lot of prodding yourself to operate on them and they would develop quite often intense spasm of all the cerebral arteries, 551 01:16:49,550 --> 01:16:54,710 particularly the ones near the Anderson. And you operated on them. 552 01:16:54,710 --> 01:17:03,680 And it was fairly desperate because, uh, you really couldn't do anything good for them. 553 01:17:03,680 --> 01:17:10,490 And it was thought if you got them early before they went into spasm, you could do the surgery on that. 554 01:17:10,490 --> 01:17:20,330 Or if you left them late and you could do that. And Chris started doing the early and he had a lot of fatalities. 555 01:17:20,330 --> 01:17:26,270 Not his fault. Yeah. And I did some work on the, uh, on the spine. 556 01:17:26,270 --> 01:17:34,160 Some, uh, it was it was something you thought you could fix, but it wasn't fixed in my time. 557 01:17:34,160 --> 01:17:44,340 And then suddenly Chris decided to leave a couple of weeks and he began operating in about three or four weeks after the event. 558 01:17:44,340 --> 01:17:49,750 And then the mortality was never except that some of them had died. 559 01:17:49,750 --> 01:17:55,370 Yeah, yeah. But they had died outside the surgical department. 560 01:17:55,370 --> 01:18:05,360 And so they see I mean, these people were often in coma for four weeks before June 19th, you know, and then they started pouring water into them. 561 01:18:05,360 --> 01:18:09,140 Is that right? I live on in. 562 01:18:09,140 --> 01:18:13,310 Yeah, yeah. It was a success or not. 563 01:18:13,310 --> 01:18:17,060 I mean, it's pretty experimental, I think. Yes, I think so. 564 01:18:17,060 --> 01:18:31,010 Yeah. They would detect the ones that you found difficult, but I mean the ones on the antigen which kind of after you were put together. 565 01:18:31,010 --> 01:18:36,680 Yeah. Now what else should I be asking you about Trevor. Hmm. 566 01:18:36,680 --> 01:18:43,430 I don't really know. Neurosurgery, neurology. 567 01:18:43,430 --> 01:18:50,900 We've covered much of that. And how did you feel when you came to retire, as it were? 568 01:18:50,900 --> 01:18:56,690 Was the subject still developing or. Oh, yeah. You know, is fantastic. 569 01:18:56,690 --> 01:19:02,000 I came into neuropathology, rather, 570 01:19:02,000 --> 01:19:12,560 because and I had all these spinal cord to look at and no one seemed to know anything about the pathology, the spinal cord. 571 01:19:12,560 --> 01:19:20,700 And I kept at these specimens and I used to go to a back and ask people about the spinal cord now. 572 01:19:20,700 --> 01:19:30,470 And I used to go to Germany that little bit more. And then I wrote my book on the spinal cord pathology, the spinal cord, which is up there. 573 01:19:30,470 --> 01:19:35,780 And after then, of course, everyone used to send me specimens. 574 01:19:35,780 --> 01:19:43,980 And so I. I became. 575 01:19:43,980 --> 01:19:48,740 Yes, you got them specimen's around the country, if not the world. 576 01:19:48,740 --> 01:19:52,320 The world is so great. I love you very much before that. 577 01:19:52,320 --> 01:20:02,500 And I go to the experts. And so I wrote this little book, which is a long time, although it Luke, I remember the bookshelf up the middle. 578 01:20:02,500 --> 01:20:06,790 That's right. And we are the middle six to my clinical. 579 01:20:06,790 --> 01:20:11,700 Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean so you know, Skaf and yes I did. 580 01:20:11,700 --> 01:20:16,620 And you. Yeah. So did you know him well. Oh yes. 581 01:20:16,620 --> 01:20:25,480 He was a good bloke I thought a bit of a dry old stick with a very good bloke and there was a system that was very good wasn't. 582 01:20:25,480 --> 01:20:30,120 And then there was a haematologist there. How about ever. 583 01:20:30,120 --> 01:20:41,400 Um, no, I'm getting mixed up with there was an American who was involved with glandular fever and that sort of thing. 584 01:20:41,400 --> 01:20:49,300 Yeah. That, um, the, uh, I'd like to do a little sex. 585 01:20:49,300 --> 01:20:53,520 It was Alfred Lloyd Johnson tells me. Yes, he was. Yes, absolutely. 586 01:20:53,520 --> 01:20:59,160 Yes. Yeah. That's great, Trevor. You must have been very pleased with that. 587 01:20:59,160 --> 01:21:04,530 Yeah. Well, it just came at the right time. 588 01:21:04,530 --> 01:21:13,020 Yes. And but now the neuropathology stayed at the old Clifton for quite a long time. 589 01:21:13,020 --> 01:21:17,730 Yes. Was that your doing or happenstance with. 590 01:21:17,730 --> 01:21:21,980 You know, it was the we were outvoted by cardiologists. 591 01:21:21,980 --> 01:21:35,070 And yes. You remember the acrimonious discussions that, uh, went on for quite a while, but we grown so much. 592 01:21:35,070 --> 01:21:45,390 Yes. The facilities for us in the John Rats, if we're not very big because the ER pathology had no provision whatsoever. 593 01:21:45,390 --> 01:21:56,760 And Richard, when Joe Pennebaker said, oh, well, as a matter of fact, we've got a rectangle up there for my research, you can have that. 594 01:21:56,760 --> 01:22:01,350 So we plan to pass the parliament up there. 595 01:22:01,350 --> 01:22:06,780 And it was really quite nice. And then it was decided that neurosurgery couldn't go there. 596 01:22:06,780 --> 01:22:10,620 Yes, a neurologist couldn't go out there. Yes. 597 01:22:10,620 --> 01:22:21,390 And then they built the tower of law that there is an IMAX who was involved with Ritchie over the chair. 598 01:22:21,390 --> 01:22:26,190 Was it the founding of the chair with the Maxwell chair initially? 599 01:22:26,190 --> 01:22:30,090 And er, you know, the chair of neurology. Yeah. 600 01:22:30,090 --> 01:22:35,430 Maxwell had to do with the beginning of that, you know, Pergament pressed Maxwell. 601 01:22:35,430 --> 01:22:41,640 Well I don't think that's quite right. Okay. See, what happened is that his son. 602 01:22:41,640 --> 01:22:46,530 Yes. Was involved in the accident and had a very bad head injury, 603 01:22:46,530 --> 01:23:00,900 went into a coma and was nursed in which he ward for months and then, uh, in a coma on a child support system. 604 01:23:00,900 --> 01:23:08,670 And Maxwell and his family rushed around every day and say, what are you doing? 605 01:23:08,670 --> 01:23:12,200 How are you treating this chap? Can we help you in any way? 606 01:23:12,200 --> 01:23:27,570 You know? And then as the weeks became months, they began to visit far less and his promises of great monetary help became a bit dim. 607 01:23:27,570 --> 01:23:38,160 And eventually, after a lot of prodding, he paid out a sum of money, which was quite small, not five or ten thousand pounds. 608 01:23:38,160 --> 01:23:44,540 And it came from the insurance of the car. 609 01:23:44,540 --> 01:23:51,920 It was the insurance payout for the death, and I think his son was driving. 610 01:23:51,920 --> 01:23:56,960 I think right. So it was all pretty murky and didn't evolve. 611 01:23:56,960 --> 01:24:05,270 So the idea that Max was actually fond of the chair because the chair was almost entirely funded by polio by, 612 01:24:05,270 --> 01:24:12,140 right by and because Richard Russell was very well in with polio. 613 01:24:12,140 --> 01:24:12,780 Yes. 614 01:24:12,780 --> 01:24:23,910 And they not only funded the chair, but rather insisted that he should be the first incumbent Ninety-two as to what his brother eventually accepted. 615 01:24:23,910 --> 01:24:29,630 Yes. Anything else? You know, I don't think so. 616 01:24:29,630 --> 01:24:35,120 Well, it's been a wonderful interview, really mean a lot of things that I really didn't know. 617 01:24:35,120 --> 01:24:39,306 So. Well, that's great. Ending the interview.
